Meet Michelle

Michelle Rhee: You have these truly remarkable kids growing up in an environment where they weren’t getting great schooling, and then their life chances and life outcomes were associated with that—and the opposite happening in private schools. And it just seemed unfair to me, wholly unfair.

Kevin P. Chavous: While the pandemic has certainly pushed schools to embrace technology, experts believe the real transformation in American education is still missing. The numbers speak for themselves. Public school leaders across the nation estimate that 32 percent of students finish the 2023-2024 school year—

Michelle Rhee: It’s tough. You know, I’m not going to lie because of the broader political environment that exists right now. I think that it’s very different from back in my day, where there was still some bipartisan work going on where around education issues, Democratic and Republican lawmakers and states would come together and say, “Yeah, we sort of agree with these.”

Kevin P. Chavous: What changes do we need to see in education? How do we close the gap between where we are now and where we need to be? And, most importantly, how do we build schools that truly get our kids ready for the future? This is what I want to know. Joining us today is Michelle Rhee, a well-known voice in education reform.

As head of the Washington, D.C. Public Schools from 2007 to 2010, Michelle made bold, sometimes controversial, changes that got people talking nationwide. Later, she started Students First, a nonprofit dedicated to transforming education. She’s here to talk about the future of education, how technology fits in, and ways we can better prepare our children for a changing world.

Kevin P. Chavous: Michelle, welcome to the show.

Michelle Rhee: Thank you for having me, Kevin.

Kevin P. Chavous: I don’t want to sound too formal because we know each other so well, and I’m such a big fan of who you are, but I really appreciate you coming on. And there’s so much to unpack with not just your work, but more importantly, Michelle, and again, I know you, your commitment to children. Why did this whole idea of what we’re doing to help our kids learn—why and how did it resonate so much?

Michelle Rhee: So, I grew up very privileged, to be honest. My father was a physician. We lived in Toledo, Ohio. I went to great schools, both public and private. And one of the things that I realized when I was young—well, first of all, everybody who knows me well will tell you that I like kids way more than I like adults.

The idea that you have these truly remarkable kids growing up in an environment where they weren’t getting great schooling, and then their life chances and life outcomes were associated with that. And the opposite happening in private schools, and it just seemed unfair to me, wholly unfair. And so it inspired me to be really kind of compelled by this idea of how we fix the public education system. And probably also some of that was driven by the fact that my parents were immigrants to this country. Education was the most important thing. We talked about it all the time.

Kevin P. Chavous: And let’s talk about going past the New Teacher Project when you became Chancellor of D.C. Public Schools, which you’re probably most known for. As you know, we had a couple of common folks in terms of Adrian Fenty, who used to be on my staff, and he was the one who hired you and Joe Klein and others.

Michelle Rhee: I mean, I had been running the New Teacher Project for 10 years before that. And we worked with all of the large urban school districts across the country. And honestly, it was oftentimes very frustrating work because we’d be like, “Oh my gosh, why won’t the superintendent do this?” Or why won’t they decide what initiatives they’re going to have six months ahead of time so that we can understand what shuffling is going to happen so that we can hire teachers earlier?

So I had all kinds of things that I wished superintendents were doing, and I thought, this is the chance to do the things that Michelle, you said you wished superintendents would do. And to do that with the support of Adrian, which just can’t be overstated. I mean, his political sort of courage and will really was the game-changing factor in all this.

Kevin P. Chavous: I do want you to talk briefly about your takeaways from that experience. And then I want to go into a little bit of the politics. But looking back, what are some of the big sort of lessons learned, if you will, from your experiences as D.C. Chancellor?

Michelle Rhee: Let’s see. I’d say one was just the fact that communication matters so much. You know, I was super naive when I took that job and I very much thought, “Oh, well, you just put your head down, work really hard to produce results, and then people are going to love the results.” And what we totally missed the mark on was the fact that if you’re not messaging and talking to people consistently about what we’re doing and why—right over and over and over again—your message, the narrative, can get co-opted. It can be established for you unless you’re out there proactively beating that drum.

And so that’s something that we absolutely failed on—we did not do that particularly well. That was one lesson, I think. And another was just the fact that we had the luxury of having all of the stars aligned. We had an incredibly supportive and visionary mayor who was then putting the resources of the entire city towards what we were doing.

We had philanthropic support. We had the very unique sort of city-state dynamic. So our mayor was essentially the mayor and the governor. And I think because all of that was set up in such a unique way, people often misunderstand the difficulties involved in implementing policies—not just the policy in and of itself, but this teacher’s union contract or this pay schedule, this teacher evaluation. You can do that theoretically like the policy can be made, but at the end of the day, whether or not it’s going to impact kids in a positive way all comes down to whether it can be executed and implemented well. And I think that is something that people often just under-appreciated.

Kevin P. Chavous: Today, Michelle, kids still are not able to maximize their potential in most of America’s schools.

Michelle Rhee: So I just joined a venture firm called Equal Opportunity Ventures, or EO Ventures. And so we invest in startups that have a service or a product that we believe is, in the long run, going to help economic and social mobility.

So obviously, education innovations are a place that I’m really heavily pushing. And I think that you know, I’ve been doing this job for three months now. And what I will say is that to be honest, I had become very jaded as it pertained to what we can accomplish in public education over the next 20 years, given the last sort of 30 years of my experience.

Michelle Rhee: I sort of got to that place where I was like, I don’t know if we’re ever going to be able to fix this in a way that ensures that all kids can get a great education. And now in this seat, I am in the incredibly fortunate position where every single day I get to talk to founders who have an idea about how they can make the system better. And it’s fascinating. It’s everything from companies that are taking processes that, to your point, have run the same way over and over again for years and decades and have just sucked up so much time and energy.

And they’re like, “Here’s this technology tool that can make your life way more efficient and better,” because it makes—this particular company that I’m thinking about does master scheduling—way easier for schools. So things like that just make certain processes more efficient, to other founders who are really thinking outside the box about how they can both either work within the system or outside the system.

To really give parents choice, to give kids more agency, to provide more resources and supports around such important topics like mental health. And in seeing all of that, I have a renewed sense of hope and confidence that we are going to be able to change the game in education because there are just so many people out there who are thinking in incredibly innovative ways.

And I think that this space can allow those entrepreneurs to make a difference and to help a system. Because the way that public education systems are set up right now, it’s not a hotbed for innovation. But if you can have folks externally sort of pushing in, in partnership with school districts, I think there’s real potential here.

Kevin P. Chavous: This is my last question along those lines. Michelle, this is what I really want to know: when you think about all the various policymakers, stakeholders, parents, communities—people come at the education sort of challenge from so many different and varied positions. What would you say to them in terms of this understanding that we just mutually achieved in terms of what’s possible from a practical point of view?

What would you say to them who remain skeptical because they have these various lenses? Parents are skeptical, folks on the Republican side are skeptical, Democratic side, union—but what would you say to them that would serve to help bring us together from a “what is possible” point of view?

Michelle Rhee: I do. It’s so hard these days because I think the country is polarized. Absolutely it is.

Kevin P. Chavous: That’s why someone like you needs to opine on this because we are divided. And this is the one area where we should begin the building blocks for unity building.

Michelle Rhee: I agree. I think that’s exactly right. But it’s tough, you know, I’m not gonna lie because of the broader political environment that exists right now. I think that it’s very different from—now I feel like an old person—but when I say “back in my day,” where there was still some bipartisan work going on, where around education issues, Democratic and Republican lawmakers and states would come together and say, “Yeah, we sort of agree with these points.”

I think in that environment, it is tough to figure out what are the mechanisms through which we can all sort of come together and unify. But if there is one thing that potentially could drive that, wouldn’t it be what is good and right for kids? And I think instead of just each political party staking out, “Well, this is what we think is good for kids,” if we could really sort of ground ourselves in the data and these are the kinds of innovations, approaches, strategies, curricula that are producing results and equalizing the playing field—can we all agree on how those are measured and then hold ourselves accountable as adults to ensuring that we’re spending money and time and effort on the things that we know matter the most for kids?

That’s what I would hope. And the other thing I’d say is, I have the good fortune of oftentimes being able to go and speak. I speak at Harvard and Stanford Business School and different places. And I will say that anytime I talk to the next generation of reformers, I always say like my generation couldn’t figure this out, but it’s up to you all. And I think they have an optimism and a sense of what needs to happen to kind of bridge the polarized dialogue that is happening right now. I think that, combined with these incredibly courageous souls who are taking the leap into entrepreneurship and innovation—with those two things combined, I think that hopefully, the next 20 years in the education space will look very different.

Kevin P. Chavous: Well said. Michelle Rhee, my dear friend, thank you so much for joining us on What I Want to Know.

Michelle Rhee: Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure as always.

Kevin P. Chavous: Thanks for listening to What I Want to Know. Be sure to follow and subscribe to the show on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app, so you can explore other episodes and dive into our discussions on the future of education and write a review of the show. I also encourage you to join the conversation and let me know what you want to know using hashtag WIWTK on social media. That’s hashtag WIWTK. For more information on Stride and online education, visit stridelearning.com. I’m your host, Kevin P. Chavous. Thank you for joining What I Want to Know.